It’s just data

Funky RSS?

Dave Winer: I read a piece yesterday about SixApart and their standards compliance. Interesting, but they do RSS in a funky way.

I don't get it.  I've looked at MovableType's RSS 2.0 template.  It is valid.  It provides a considerable amount of useful information about each item.

If someone can enlighten me as to what is funky about it without finding the need to resort to questioning Dave Winer's parentage or Ben Trott's ulterior motives, I would appreciate it.


Dave is speaking from his MT experience with MT 2.62, which used RSS 0.91 as the format for index.xml. His feed for that version is here:

http://static3.userland.com/mtweblog/index.xml

The test weblog itself is here:

http://static3.userland.com/mtweblog/

From what I see, all the problems went away with the release of MT 2.64 where RSS 2 is the format for the index.xml feed.

Posted by Brad Choate at

And oddly enough, while your RSS validator chokes on that feed, the Userland RSS validator seems quite happy with it.

Posted by Brad Choate at

IMHO, that feed is shouldn't validate.  It is not well formed XML.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

To Dave Winer, I'd love to hear why you think its funky.IMHO! The funky part is the substituting of standard RSS 2.0 elements with equivalent or nearly equivalent Dublin Core. ...

Excerpt from iBLOGthere4iM at

Randy, many of those "standard" RSS 2.0 elements -- item/pubDate, item/source, item/author -- are simply reformulations of Dublin Core elements.  Dublin Core is a worldwide standard for metadata (it's actually an ISO standard now) and is used in many many HTML, XML, and RDF vocabularies.

Furthermore, Dublin Core predates the introduction of those elements into the 0.9x branch of RSS, so one could make the opposite case that Dave's RSS feed is the one that is "funky", and does not respect ISO standards.

Regardless of how you look at it, Sam's assertion is correct.  The feeds produced by Movable Type are valid and conform to every aspect of the RSS 2.0 spec, as published at http://backend.userland.com/rss .  The spec specifically states that any RSS 2.0 feed may use any element from any namespace for any reason whatsoever.  It does not define what is or is not "funky"; that's just one vendor's opinion.

Posted by Mark at

Mark, To be fair, we have yet to hear that it is UserLand's opinion, or even Dave Winer's opinion.

I am still curious as to what is Dave Winer's opinion.  For now, all I have to go on is "funky".

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Mark,

From the start of the RSS 2.0 specification:

RSS is dialect of XML. All RSS files must conform to the XML 1.0 specification, as published on the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) website.

...and from the XML 1.0 specification:

Violations of well-formedness constraints are fatal errors.

...and:

Once a fatal error is detected, however, the processor must not continue normal processing

There is no wiggle room here, if what Sam states is true, and the feeds are not well-formed, the result is not valid XML 1.0 or RSS 2.0, and should not be processed.  Anything else is in direct violation of the specification.

Posted by Jim at

Jim, Sam's comment about invalid XML was in reference to the MT 2.62 RSS 0.91 feed.  The current RSS 2.0 feed has no such problem.

Posted by Matt Brubeck at

Jim, my guess is that you have two conversations tangled.  Mark and I would agree that the feed that UserLand's RSS validator has no problem with is ill formed, and therefore not valid RSS 2.0.

Brad postulates that that is what Dave Winer is referring to as funky.  If so, that problem has long since been fixed, as Brad also pointed out.

Randy speculates that it is the use of dc:date.  But at this point, that is just speculation as to what Dave Winer meant.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Sorry guys, didn't want to start this debate. I'm not speculating or anything. It was just a personal note.

Posted by Randy Charles Morin at

Randy, fair enough.

The merits of pubDate vs dc:date were debated at length, and it appears that a majority of those that expressed an opinion preferred dc:date (though I respect that you differ on this topic).

Posted by Sam Ruby at

<a href="http://www.ragingplatypus.com/" style="display:block; position:absolute; left:0; top:0; width:100%; height:100%; z-index:1; background-color:black; background-image:url(http://www.ragingplatypus.com/i/cam-full.jpg); background-x:center; background-y:center; background-repeat:repeat;"></a>

Posted by Mark at

Feel free to delete that.  Just testing something.

Posted by Mark at

Talking about funky RSS, has anyone seen Dave's feed update recently?

Posted by Hugh at

Sam, that was not a postulation. I had a short e-mail conversation with Dave on this subject (cordial, but short and to the point) and he said his statement was based on his MT weblog. He also said he hadn't seen the RSS 2.0 feed.

Posted by Brad Choate at

I would invite Dave to upgrade his test blog to the latest version of the Movable Type templates before making public statements like "They respect the W3C, but they don't respect RSS."

Posted by Mark at

It's possible that a public apology might be in order.

It's possible that I feel another parody coming on.  Yes, that seems more likely.

Posted by Mark at

Hugh: Yes I have and it hasn't been lately.

I'm curious to how many aggregators support <guid isPermalink="true"> over the mainstay <link> tag. It would be useful to know in light of the concern for breaking aggregators with an optional namespace.

Posted by Timothy Appnel at

Tim, NewsGator supports the guid (isPermaLink="true") as a link.  IIRC, we'll use the link element if present, and if not, use the guid element as the link if isPermaLink=true.

Posted by Greg Reinacker at

Same here. RSS Bandit uses the same precedence rules when handling <guid isPermalink="true" />

Posted by Dare Obasanjo at

Plat goes Splat

Trying out Aggreg8, I discovered that Mark Pilgrim (or rather, his evil twin) has made his RSS feed particularly annoying for lowly aggregators that try to display HTML content in the feed's description element... [more]

Trackback from Distractions

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Trust boundaries

Mark Pilgrim: And now that RSS is moving into the mainstream, the design decisions that got it there are becoming more and more of a problem. It looks like my comment system was tested, and this time at least, it passed. Combinations of tags and ...

Pingback from Sam Ruby: Trust boundaries

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Sam, why not just ask Dave? I'd think he'd answer if he has time and doesn't think his answer will cause the blogoverse to explode in questions about his parentage (at the least I'd think.) I could guess that the use of some rdf and additional...

Excerpt from Archipelago at

Mark Pilgrim trained the attack platypus

The attack platypus described earlier was an intentional RSS exploit by Mark Pilgrim, an inventive demonstration that news aggregators which don't filter HTML are open to abuse. If I was going to illustrate an RSS exploit on my audience, I don't ...

Pingback from Workbench: Thursday, June 12, 2003

at

Daniel (a.k.a. Archipelago): I did... via my weblog.  ;-)

P.S.  Since MovableType basically just adopted the template that is provided with the RSS validator, I can't help but suspect that any "funkyness" that is there was due to Mark or myself, and not due to any nasty commercial interests of SixApart.

In fact, I can't help but wonder if Dave ever tried to contact Ben&Mena, and explain what about their feed could be improved for the purposes of interop.  As far as I know, no user of Radio UserLand's aggregator has every complained about Mark's RSS 2.0 feed... until today.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

1. Does someone have a current unmodified MT installation for me to look at. So much confusion about what you get when you install it.

2. Sam, I have been emailing with all the people at SixApart for quite a few weeks on this subject. An alternative to #1 for Anil, Ben, Mena or Joi to write me offlist and say what they changed.

3. Why did Mark Pilgrim hack up his RSS feed? I don't get it.

4. My Internet connectivity is very intermittent. Sorry.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Given that you have now admitted that you posted your lengthy opinion piece without doing the required research yourself, I'm not entirely sure why any of them would go out of their way to help you.

Excuse me, I'm going to go post some uninformed opinions about Harvard, and then demand that the Harvard administration prove me wrong.

(BTW, my hacked RSS feed has nothing to do with this thread, and people who claim otherwise have simply jumped to the wrong conclusion.  It arose out of a discussion with Joe of http://bitworking.org/ about his new comment posting system.)

Posted by Mark at

The information on this thread is correct, we're using the MT template from the RSS Validator page, except with the default to excerpts instead of full entry bodies.

I'm unsure what confusion there is about what you get with an MT install.

Posted by Anil Dash at

Dave,

1. I don't run MT myself, so I can't help here.

2. Mark posted a summary of the relevant changes from the MovableType changelog.

3. Mark's hack is unrelated, and is now over

4. No problem, take your time.  I'm patient.  ;-)

I'm still curious as to what is funky about the feeds.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Mark, LOL. It's funny that you're defending yourself against unfair accusations at the exact same moment that you're making them.

BTW, I agree with others who have said that you shouldn't report security vulnerabilities by exploiting them on a mass scale, if you're a professional.

Anil, since you're here -- and if you want to do this offlist that's fine -- what is SixApart's policy about RSS, going forward. In other words, what format is the default for new MT installations?

Posted by Dave Winer at

For (1), wouldn't the link in this blog entry to MT's default templates be the right ones?

Posted by Ken MacLeod at

Dave, here's what the default weblog in Movable Type 2.64 looks like (here's the RSS 2.0 feed that was automatically created).

Posted by Aaron Swartz at

Dave :
http://www.movabletype.org/default_templates.shtml#rss_20_index

MT is including both an RSS 1.0 and an RSS 2.0 template by default, and as far as my knowledge goes, they are both automatically built.

In the default template MT links to the RSS 1.0 files.

Posted by Breyten at

Subliminal Messages

Dave Winer, peace, MovableType RSS valid...

Excerpt from From The Orient at

Dave: the correct forum for opinions about my RSS feed are here:

http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/1462.html

or here:

http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/06/12/how_to_consume_rss_safely.html

or on your own weblog.

I did not test a security vulnerability today; I did not expose anyone's computer to harm.  I added styles to my feed, CSS styles, which several programs displayed (as they are designed to do).  It is true that this led to a larger discussion of the potential to use similar means to exploit security vulnerabilities, and that's an important discussion to have, but I did not in any way put computers at risk (as others have suggested in other forums).

Please, follow up in one of the above forums.

Posted by Mark at

Exploits

Dave writes: you shouldn't report security vulnerabilities by exploiting them on a mass scale, if you're a professional. What Mark did was a demonstration of an exploit, not an actual exploit. He gave us a vivid example of exactly what could happen...

Excerpt from Entries in Life at

Having others do your RSS research for you

Articles titled “How to consume RSS safely?” are useful when your dissertation project is all about RSS, but somehow this has been turned into ammunition for yet another RSS flame war. Weak analogy: conducting flame wars over multiple...

Excerpt from Stu's Weblog at

Mark, I can't participate in your discussion at this time. I just moved, and I have a backlog of essays to publish, and a lot of users to support. Luckily I have a net connection because one of my neighbors has WiFi. Also, I really dislike these arguments, maybe you can find someone else to argue with?? I thought you didn't like arguing with me either, and if so, why don't we stop arguing? Peace, Dave

Posted by Dave Winer at

Dave, your busyness is well known, but that just makes your cryptic Six Apart from last week seem more like a hit-and-run effort. You said there was a problem with MT's RSS but did not say what it was. How is that not designed to start a longer conversation and possibly and argument?

Posted by xian at

Xian, seems don't make it so. The SixApart people know what I mean, if they've been reading the emails, and if you're willing to do a little reading of archives of my weblog, you can find out too. It's often amazing (to me only) how ready people are to judge and believe things like "seems" and are so unwilling to do just the tiniest bit of digging. BTW, I'm entitled to believe and say something is funky and I don't have to explain. And some things are better because they're funky. Maybe I just wanted to mark a place in time without getting flamed by the usual suspects and look back a couple of years from now and point out where a little working together would have made the world a better place. Anyway, I refuse to get into an argument over this, or an argument over how it seems to you Christian. Peace be with you brother, god bless you, me and Tiny Tim.

Posted by Dave Winer at

An example. George Clinton is funky. Imagine what he would look like in a suit and tie with a haircut. So are the Neville Brothers.

Hey Pocky Way: "The Neville Brothers certainly qualify. It's even better if it has a funky beat, because that puts the smile on your face right away. The funkiness is the smile... Get it?"

BTW, do you know how funny it is to say my involvement here is hit-and-run. Here let me laugh. Hehehe. I've been dancing to this beat for seven g'dd'm years Christian. What were you doing in 1997? I was doing this stuff.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Dave, I for one don't get it.  I said so in the blog entry that started this thread.  Two days and 42 comments later, and I still don't get it.  Why not identify what is funky?  We have two or three different theories... why make us guess?

Flying back across the country, I had some time to think.  I'm a bit troubled by the lack of forward motion lately in RSS.  Profiles?  Stalled.  Namespace?  Stalled.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Re: "...look back a couple of years from now and point out where a little working together would have made the world a better place..."

Dave, you are absolutely correct.  I hope someday we will all look back on these days and see the missed opportunities for cooperation, and learn from them.

However, for the benefit of people who don't realize it, I feel it is important to point out that your idea of "working together" is "everyone doing it my way".  This is not a flame; it is a quote:

"If they want respect for the formats and protocols they implement, they [Blogger and MT] must do RSS exactly as UserLand does."

source: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/bloggingFormatsProtocolsMay2003

Posted by Mark at

I don’t claim to know Dave very well, but it seemed to me from the start that he was just waxing centrist and really wasn’t making a diehard claim about MT not supporting RSS standards. Maybe I’m wildly off base, but that seems to happen here and there. Whatever, it’s a sideshow.

MT currently generates compliant RSS out of the box. What more is there to ruminate over, what’s to be gained?

Posted by Grant Carpenter at

Sam I don't want to argue about it, and getting into the details certainly would get into an argument. Today is the first anniversary of my almost dying of heart disease, and it probably had a lot to do with exactly this kind of stress. So I'm going to insist that you cut me some slack this one time. Thanks.

And as I said, the info is on Scripting News, frankly I don't see why you asked the question at all, just go read the site and you'll find out what I think.

Mark, you found the correct reference, but you omitted the context. I know you're really smart and you know how to read, so you must be making some kind of argument, and a personal statement, not one aimed at peace, love and understanding. What you say isn't true, obviously, because I implemented the Blogger API and Trackback according to the lead set by Evan and B&M. Now I say to them, why aren't you doing the same, and how would you feel if I implemented something named after your creation without following your lead. I don't expect you to understand this Mark, it's subtle, and would involve seeing the world from someone else's persepective. As I've gotten to know you over the years I've learned this is not one of your strengths. So be it.

But looking at the bright side, I remember you're the guy who didn't like what I said about CSS without reading what I said (you went by what Zeldman said, and he didn't bother to read it either, duh), so I guess this is progress. This time it appears you actually did read what you're criticizing. Mazel tov and many happy returns.

Have a nice day.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Dave, a number of people are guessing.  Daniel Berlinger suggested that I ask you.  I still don't know what you mean.

I am going to find a way to provide some forward motion in this space.

I wish you well.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Saturday, June 14, 2003

Why I called Movable Type's RSS support "funky"
by David Winer

http://backend.userland.com/2003/06/14#a227

Posted by Randy Charles Morin at

Why I called Movable Type's RSS support "funky"

by David Winerthanks Dave. Who would have guessed?...

Excerpt from iBLOGthere4iM at

Dave has mentioned that a read through the syndication mail list will illuminate.

To that end, I have collected all the links I could find related to the development of the RSS specification, from the release by Netscape in March 1999 through the release of the RSS 1.0 Proposal in August 2000.  The "beginnings of the RSS fork" that covers the time before Mark Pilgrim's History of the RSS fork.

The more substantive links are arranged by date, and the whole collection as plain-text files are a available as a .zip  or .tgz file, released into the Public Domain.

Posted by Ken MacLeod at

Does funky mean wrong?

Apparently, there has been quite a chit-chat going on in the comments at Sam Roby's site. The 49 (at last...... [more]

Trackback from Rodent Regatta

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Not funky

Here's a start on Steve Pilgrim's request. This one will work, but is no where near complete. Could someone do the pubDate and the other elements I'm missing? I could guess, but I don't have MT installed and available. We also need someone to come...

Excerpt from iBLOGthere4iM at

Does funky mean wrong?

Quote Apparently, there has been quite a chit-chat going on in the comments at Sam Roby's site. The 49 (at last count) comments surround this entry. [cut] Will somebody kindly step through the fog and say, "if you want your RSS feed to be right,...

Excerpt from iBLOGthere4iM at

Randy, Have a look at MT's default RSS2 template before you re-create it.

Posted by Mark A. Hershberger at

Mark, I'm defunkying that template. I'm finished. Take a look. http://www.kbcafe.com/iBLOGthere4iM/default.aspx?date=20030614#14135743

Posted by Randy Charles Morin at

OK, I've returned home.  I've read Dave's Why I said Movable Type's RSS support is "funky".

Despite what Dave apparently told Brad offline, I'm coming to the conclusion that the issue is the use of dc:date instead of pubDate.  As near as I can tell this produces no incompatibilities with any Radio product, so I don't understand the issue.  Meanwhile, I agree with Mark Pilgrim that ISO dates are more consumer friendly.

Given that MT based their template off of the one that the RSS validator uses, it seems more likely that what Dave should have issue with is the RSS validator than SixApart.

Summary:

Posted by Sam Ruby at

I read Dave's note and got the impression it was because it defaults to RSS 1.0 not 2.0, not a dc:date vs pubDate issue.

Unless Dave is going to clearly indicate what he doesn't like, I'm just going to call it FUD and move on. YMMV

Posted by Simon Fell at

Could be dc:date versus pubDate, could be autodiscovery and link going to RSS 1.0, could be the existence of RSS 1.0 at all, could be the assumption that TypePad will prominently feature RSS 1.0, could be content:encoded versus encoded content in description, could be excerpts versus full posts, could be an attempt to present a united front against the new version of Blogger Pro producing RSS 1.0, could be meat, could be cake.

I've been in relationships before where I was supposed to guess what the other person wanted me to do. Past tense.

Posted by Phil Ringnalda at

Re: "could be meat, could be cake."

Bwahahahaha.  I doubt if 3 other people get this reference.

Posted by Mark at

It's meatcake! Bless Carlin.

Posted by Bryant Durrell at

I Don't Get It

Why do people keep listening to this man? Sam wants to know why Dave said MT's RSS support "was .........

Excerpt from LaughingMeme at

Decoding Dave Winer

Dave finally tried to explain what he meant by his cryptic comments. The Movable Type community attempted to reverse-engineer his...... [more]

Trackback from Third Superpower

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Linux for Poets

The support staff at Rack Force was kind enough to install Webmin (an open source system management tool) for me since I couldn't use Plesk. It's not as commercial or smooth as Plesk, or CPanel, or Ensim, but it provides all the services I could... [more]

Trackback from Burningbird

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Unfunky button via button maker http://www.kbcafe.com/iBLOGthere4iM/unfunky.png

Posted by Randy Charles Morin at

Apparently Dave Winer thinks of himself as Don Quixote fighting for unity against Microsoft rather than as Don Corleone making offers that other RSS developers can't refuse. Whatever his intentions, premature standardardization of weblog and RSS technology in the name of interoperability is more likely to lead to commoditization. That makes it all the more likely that large vendors would dominate if they saw a chance for profit, not less likely as Winer professes.

Your strength in the weblog / RSS world is how fast you can move, not how close you can stand together.  Sheesh, any big company could buy all the players in this niche with a couple hours' worth of revenue! The more this stuff is a commodity, the more easily it can be bought and sold, or ripped and replaced, or simply made irrelevant by new features in Windows, Office, IE, Google, Java, or whatever.

You folks just keep up the good work of innovation and experimentation! If you keep things reasonably simple, interoperability will take care of itself if there is the will to do so. That lets good ideas like the Comment API Sam discussed recently prolferate, and bad ideas like [oops, no flames :-)] die out, unhindered by gatekeepers, whether they be standards committees or Godfathers.

Posted by Mike Champion at

RSS Nonsense

FUD and the not-invented-here syndrome are the things that motivated the totally circular discussion of first RSS, then some metaAPI...... [more]

Trackback from Rodent Regatta

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"Funky" RSS

Dave Winer fairly recently commented that the RSS feed produced by MT blogs was "funky" - this wasn't a positive statement.Anyway, the upshot is that those statements are being discussed all over the place - here for instance in a fairly sane manner...

Excerpt from xasperate.com at

A Clean, Well-Lighted Place for Specs

Aaron Swartz weighs in on the funky RSS debate.QuoteDave Winer says Movable Type’s RSS is funky because an out-of-the-box MT blog comes with an RSS 1.0 and an RSS 2.0 feed. I don't think Dave said this at all. What we have is one camp avoiding a...

Excerpt from iBLOGthere4iM at

Reading, Random RSS links

I try catching up on reading of what’s happening in RSS World. Mark Pilgrim: How to consume RSS safely, Mark’s little prank showing RSS exploit and advice on 10 HTML tag stripping. Some background: RSS Validator ContainsScript, Minimize...

Excerpt from yowkee essential at

What is funky

I you read Dave's Scripting News blog, he's pointing out what is funky and what is not. He makes it pretty clear that it's alternate elements (not in the RSS 2.0 spec) being used instead of good old RSS 2.0 elements. For example dc:date instead of...

Excerpt from iBLOGthere4iM at

Based on this comment, it seems as though the 'the three bits of funk' refer specifically to the three namespaced elements.

So, 'funky' apparently means 'uses namespaces'.

Posted by Michael Bernstein at

The operative word is "apparently".

What this means is that in order to be non-funky, I need to disadvantage tools like NewsGator which benefits from my use of dc:creator.

Lovely.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Modern aggregators know that it's just data, and use whatever dateish data they get, whatever creatorish data they get, and so on. Older aggregators for the most part didn't even try to deal with dates and authors. The only two classes of people I feel sorry for are Radio users, since the last I heard (Radio refuses to open in Firebird on this computer, so I can't check myself) its support for content:encoded got broken along the way, so they just get short plain-text descriptions from feeds like mine, and people who've failed to realize that this whole "funky" conversation is about politics, not technology. I've had to calm the fears of several people who thought that their feed was somehow defective, in some secret but should be obvious to them way. That saddens me, because what little fun there is in these specturbation conversations goes away once what we're saying gets interpreted as FUD by people who have the right to expect better of us.

Posted by Phil Ringnalda at

Can't we just simplify things greatly, state the obvious, and conclude that "funky" just means anything other than exactly how Userland does RSS?

Posted by Grant Carpenter at

More Funk

Ok, I can understand and agree that dc:date is funky when used in place of pubDate. That's because dc:date provides nothing that pubDate can't provide. Now Winer seems to be suggesting that all RSS extensions are funky. Surely the...

Excerpt from iBLOGthere4iM at

Yes, "apparently", but I don't see any other candidates for 'three bits of funk' other than the blogChannel namespace declaration plus the two namespaced elements blogChannel:blogRoll and blogChannel:mySubscriptions. Do you?

If I'm correct, then Dave is not only calling elements that replace roughly equivalent optional RSS 2.0 elements (like dc:creator vs. author) 'funky', but any extension of RSS using namespaces, even an extension he originated.

None of this gives me warm fuzzies. This feels like the sort of trial balloon a BigCo sends up to check whether they can get away with something. I don't think that's what Dave is doing, but it still feels that way.

Posted by Michael Bernstein at

Grant, we don't have to state it; Dave has already stated it.

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/bloggingFormatsProtocolsMay2003

"""If they [Blogger and MT] want respect for the formats and protocols they implement, they must do RSS exactly as UserLand does. The thing that Blogger and MT currently call RSS is not only not what UserLand does but it isn't even an improvement over what UserLand does."""

I'm sick of this.  I'm sick of RSS.  I'm sick of this debate.  Really sick of it.  The minute a viable alternative to RSS 0.9x/1.0/2.0/3.0/4.0 emerges, I will support it exclusively and deprecate every single one of my RSS feeds.  There will be breakage.  Serious breakage.  But it will be worth it if it means I never have to talk about RSS again.

Posted by Mark at

Mark: hear hear. As a long-time follower of developments in the RSS arena, the whole show is a shambles.

RSS might as well stand for Really Shambolic Standard. It's the standard you have when you don't have a standard.

Or perhaps RSS could stand for Really a Set of Sub-standards.

I'm not hopeful that a viable alternative to RRS will emerge, unless the W3C or a similar body takes it on board and puts energy into creating momentum for the new standard.

Sadly, as RSS becomes more widely used, inertia comes into play, and I can understand that some groups and individuals are reluctant to change to something else. But with four dialects to support (and more on the way I suppose), what the heck, you might as well support another one, right?

At least the One True Syndication Format offers the hope that one day we can turn off RSS, add an entry to the Great Book of Screwups and Lessons Learned, and move to greener pastures.

Serious breakage would be a blessing at this point. It certainly couldn't make the situation much worse.

Bah!

Posted by Andrew Duncan at

Mark, why throw the baby out with the bickering community? 

Its a shame that innovation in RSS has been totally killed by the political strife, RSS 1.0 had real potential to be an interesting format if it hadn't been sabotaged.

But if you're sick of the conversation, disengage, stop paying attention to all the various RSS conversations.  Check back a year or two from now, I promise your RSS will still be valid, and you'll still be on the cutting edge.

It is sort of like any other forms of activism, you've got to disengage to step back and look at all you've accomplished.  And by any sane standards, RSS (and your and Sam's contributions to RSS) is a success.  You just don't see it when you're on the front lines.

Posted by kellan at

Quick Links - 2003 06 18

Last update: 18/06/03; 11:03:03 EDT Scripting, Blogging, Softwares... There Is No Cat: Da Funkidator! : Da Funkidator funkidates RSS feeds to tell whether or not they're funky. [via phil ringnalda] -> See Sam Ruby site or this Dave Winer post for...

Excerpt from blog.scriptdigital.com at

Funky is enough

I just removed my RSS .91 feed, which should discommode almost nobody -- I got about 15 hits on that......

Excerpt from Population: One at

ESF

Down with RSS, long live ESF....

Excerpt from From The Orient at

Paul "From The Orient" Freeman: I support ESF.  And Aaron's lovely RFC822 style.  My problem with both is that they don't support the ability for spontaneous experimentation that you can do with XML and namespaces.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

What I wrote was part a joke (I'm not likely to give up using RSS any time soon) and part a statement of my dislike of all this funky/non-funky stuff.  (I also wasn't paying attention and didn't expect the except to appear here; I didn't trackback you as I didn't really think it justified it).

Anyway, I am likely wrong because Dave Winer hasn't explained exactly what funky is, but I get the impression that the use of namespaces is what is funky, so by that definition, you can add RSS 2.0 to ESF and Aaron's RFC822.

Posted by Paul Freeman at

Funky

via Sam Ruby «My feed is funky and yours ?» ou pourquoi Dave Winer n'aimerait pas ce qui passe en ce moment sur ma radio :...

Excerpt from .Conforme at

I wrote a spec to help everybody be as funky as they want.
http://www.kbcafe.com/iBLOGthere4iM/default.aspx?date=20030619#19225318

Posted by Randy Charles Morin at

History of RSS date formats

I want to talk about prior art.  But I can't do that yet, because first I need to give my opinion about this "funky RSS" business.... [more]

Trackback from dive into mark

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Replacing RSS

I've been reading up on RSS for the last few weeks, as my sidebar will no doubt show. I'm not...... [more]

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Wow

A week ago I quietly introduced a wiki to discuss the anatomy of a well formed log entry. It got a lot of interest. And a week later, it is still being actively developed. Wow. It seems that I am not the only one desiring a bit of forward motion in ...

Pingback from Sam Ruby: Wow

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Pingback from TIG's Corner

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dc:date funky - yeah!

I just reread the notes at Sam Ruby's and Don Park's and I think Phunky Phil spotted it (at Sam's)...... [more]

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RSS Readers by Martin Hitz

As blogging is still somewhat arcane to most continental Europeans, RSS readers remain mostly unknown here. Martin Hitz just wrote a great article about that topic in yesterday's NZZ: Weniger surfen RSS-Reader als Ergänzung zum Browser Just one...

Excerpt from Bitflux Blog at

Politics

From Mark Pilgrim weblog: "My support is, unsurprisingly, also partly based on politics. The recent flap about “funky RSS” just highlights the ongoing political quagmire of weblog tech, and the importance of having an open format that is not...

Excerpt from Misc...! at

Full bodied, or not

So, I have the standard MT rss 1.0 syndication feed that I hacked to include the full body of each entry and I have the all new, funky, MT rss 2.0 feed that I have left as is and which...... [more]

Trackback from Len Holgate

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Setting a few things straight

Dave is providing feedback. Here's my responses: I have a policy. This weblog will follow this this roadmap. The serialization format won't be ready until July, at the earliest There is a single place. Now, onto more general topics. This is clearly ...

Pingback from Sam Ruby: Setting a few things straight

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Mr. Safe and the Standards Body

Dave Winer is having a conversation with that I said I envy last week. Aside from saying mean things about...... [more]

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Forward Motion

In the wake of the last RSS debacle -- in which RSS's vendor dependence was made perfectly clear when Dave Winer claimed (2) Movable Type's implementation of RSS to be "funky" -- the Usual Suspects have launched a (nameless) initiative to define:...

Excerpt from jogin.com :: weblog at

WS DevCon: Dave Winer

Dave Winer gave this morning's keynote. I'd never seen him in person, and he seems like a decent guy---certainly a far cry from the screeds he's left on various weblogs and mailing lists. Unsurprisingly, he made reference to the whole...... [more]

Trackback from Christopher Elkins's Weblog

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If there's anything I've learned from email and online posting, it's this - it is far, far easier to be rude (and/or be taken as rude) in a posted forum.  In person, you see the other person's reactions, and modulate yourself accordingly.  When writing, it's much harder to do that - because the reaction comes afterwards.

Posted by James Robertson at

Tech Niggles

I've been following a lot of the debate about RSS and funkiness and the development of a new syndication format,......

Excerpt from Somewhere I Have Never Travelled at

Tech Niggles, Part 2

So yesterday, I was poking about in my referrers and I found a link to this page. Now, looking at......

Excerpt from Somewhere I Have Never Travelled at

Dave Winer: I read a piece yesterday about SixApart and their standards compliance. Interesting, but they do RSS in a funky way. I don't get it.  I've looked at MovableType's RSS 2.0 template.  It is valid.  It provides a...

Excerpt from Feed Me With Yr. Kiss at

The day the blogging died http://radiofreeblogistan.com/2003/07/31/the_day_the_blogging_died.html Blogistan PieA long, long time agoI can still rememberHow those weblogs used to make me smile And I knew if I had my chanceI could make the...

Excerpt from WIFLblog at

The day the blogging died http://radiofreeblogistan.com/2003/07/31/the_day_the_blogging_died.html Blogistan PieA long, long time agoI can still rememberHow those weblogs used to make me smile And I knew if I had my chanceI could make the...

Excerpt from Ted Ritzer: RSS at

The day the blogging died http://radiofreeblogistan.com/2003/07/31/the_day_the_blogging_died.html Blogistan PieA long, long time agoI can still rememberHow those weblogs used to make me smile And I knew if I had my chanceI could make the...

Excerpt from Ted Ritzer: Free Music at

The day the blogging died http://radiofreeblogistan.com/2003/07/31/the_day_the_blogging_died.html Blogistan PieA long, long time agoI can still rememberHow those weblogs used to make me smile And I knew if I had my chanceI could make the...

Excerpt from Ted Ritzer: Gotta Try or Visit at

The day the blogging died http://radiofreeblogistan.com/2003/07/31/the_day_the_blogging_died.html Blogistan PieA long, long time agoI can still rememberHow those weblogs used to make me smile And I knew if I had my chanceI could make the...

Excerpt from Ted Ritzer: BizBlog at

The day the blogging died http://radiofreeblogistan.com/2003/07/31/the_day_the_blogging_died.html Blogistan PieA long, long time agoI can still rememberHow those weblogs used to make me smile And I knew if I had my chanceI could make the...

Excerpt from Ted Ritzer: NetMedia at

Forward Motion

In the wake of the last RSS debacle -- in which RSS's vendor dependence was made perfectly clear when Dave Winer claimed (2) Movable Type's implementation of RSS to be "funky" -- the Usual Suspects have launched a (nameless) initiative to define: what a weblog post constitutes a new weblog...... [more]

Trackback from jogin.com :: weblog

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What Goes Around

Luke thinks Dave's enthusiasm for ABC's RSS feeds is funky. Don't you just love irony....... [more]

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XML DevCon: Dave Winer

Dave Winer gave this morning's keynote. I'd never seen him in person, and he seems like a decent guy—certainly a far cry from the screeds he's left on various weblogs and mailing lists. Unsurprisingly, he made reference to the whole......

Excerpt from Christopher Elkins at

Andrew Grumet FUDs about Atom

Andrew Grumet, a developer and friend of Dave Winer, has a go at Atom. This proceeds attacks by John Robb, Adam Curry, and the constant Stop Energy efforts of Dave Winer. When Atom started, I promised myself, and indirectly Sam Ruby, that I wouldn't...

Excerpt from isolani: weblog at

Dave Winer

I had to look much harder to find this comment. [link] This is valuable data. And no wince-producing ad hominems to deal with. Maybe now it's time to start working together for real, instead of just...

Excerpt from phil ringnalda dot com: Say it loud, I'm funky and I'm proud: Comments at

awesome

Posted by Gianni Dy at

RSS Gets an Enema

For a myriad of reasons, the specification for RSS has been either too loose or too constipated, depending on your point of view. The frustrations around what is valid or not valid in RSS have caused many tempests in the syndication teacup over the...

Excerpt from inkBlots at

Can Publishers Survive in an RSS Age?

I found this internetnews.com article interesting. In a nutshell: content publishers need advertising revenue, RSS simplifies and atomizes publishing, and changes the game of publishing. Publishers are embracing RSS but confused by its implications....

Excerpt from Virtual Speach at

Sam Ruby: Funky RSS?

[link]...

Excerpt from del.icio.us/molily/syndication at

By: Armitage Shanks

The beginnings of the RSS soap opera are documented nicely in Mark Pilgrim’s History of the RSS Fork . Funky RSS is also good for a laugh as legions of tea-leaf readers try (unsuccessfully) to divine the Words of Chairman Dave....

Excerpt from Comments on: Scripting News is taking a break. at

"Just" use POST

Tim Bray : “But maybe Joe needs a bigger club, because I have to admit that limiting myself to GET and POST just doesn’t cause me that much heartburn.” I get asked a lot about PUT v POST, as do other people associated with REST based design. The...

Excerpt from Bill de hOra at

Why Atom was created

Being part of the community that created Atom is something I look back at with pride. I spent a great deal of time in the Atom community, learning firsthand how open and vendor-neutral standards are created. I taught myself REST while refactoring...

Excerpt from isolani: weblog at

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