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HTML5 Evolution

Background for the upcoming W3C AC meeting in general, and for the panel on the future of browsers in specific: A Few Select Quotes.

Judas Goat

The Misleader and the Misled annevk5: “RDFa in XHTML becomes a W3C Recommendation. Still not in HTML5.” is a bit misleading in that intertwingly page ; it’s not in XHTML 1.0 either Hixie: annevk5: there’s a lot on that page that’s misleading,...

Excerpt from Last Week in HTML5 at

I recognized that final quote as being Sir Humphrey Appleby’s advice on ignoring pleading from early 80s UK political comedy Yes Minister, and indeed clicking your “1986” link has Hixie attributing it to a 1981 episode.  So ... why 1986?

(PS: i tags used for the name of a pubished work because <cite> isn’t among the allowed list in comments.)

Posted by Smylers at

My read is that Hixie attributes it as follows:

Ref: “Yes, Prime Minister”, /A Victory For Democracy/. BBC, 1986

Posted by Sam Ruby at

HTML5 Yet, In Short

HTML5 evolution. This is quite in contrast with any other information on HTML5, quite concise and compact. It is quite interesting to see the non-W3C developments that have affected the Web. And I also hope that XHTML2 and HTML5 will co-exist....

Excerpt from iface thoughts at

HTML Evolution

submitted by gst [link] [1 comment]...

Excerpt from web_design: what's new online at

HTML Evolution

interesting style ideas....

Excerpt from Delicious/ubermichael at

Sam, ooops.  Clearly you’re right and I was wrong.  Somehow I’d read that as being from ‘The Greasy Pole’, but on looking again at that page I can’t work out how I managed that.  I shouldn’t comment on blogs (or attempt to read, apparently) before breakfast.  Sorry.

Posted by Smylers at

Buckle Up

Sam Ruby’s background presentation for a panel on the future of browsers to be held at the March 22-24 2009 W3C Advisory Committee meeting: Current state: HTML is being developed outside of the W3C by a number of browser implementers, excluding...

Excerpt from Shawn Medero's Blog at

Sam,
  Just like when you would post things like this for RSS, Atom, and AtomPub, I have no idea what the point is that you’re trying to make, or how you would like things to change. Care to offer a readers-digest version for your less sophisticated readers?

Posted by Joe Gregorio at

I thought the conclusion was pretty succinct.  But for people who prefer PowerPoint over prose, here are some very concrete thoughts:

Let me know which parts of that are unclear.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Curiously, you don’t mention The Workshop, which had notable position papers: Mozilla/Opera, Microsoft.

Also, about Microsoft’s (non-)participation in the WHATWG: See the paragraph starting with "As an aside, I was asked personally to join the WHAT WG over a year ago." on Chris Wilson’s blog about invitation and patent policy.

Posted by Henri Sivonen at

Nothing curious about it... I was entirely unaware of The Workshop.  Thanks for the pointer!

One of the wonders of blogging is that if you say what you do know, helpful people will come along and fill in the missing pieces.  Another great source for missing pieces can be found in the HTML’s timeline on the ESW wiki.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

meet the peckers

chip chip chip Sam Ruby publishes: HTML evolution Hixie’s message to the teamsters “Keep you peckers up, just follow my lead” Hixie: there’s a lot on that page that’s misleading Jgraham: * jgraham wonders why rubys is so hung up on aria...

Excerpt from Last Week in HTML5 at

do the twist

Sam Ruby : But for people who prefer PowerPoint over prose, here are some very concrete thoughts: * Recharter XHTML2 to either merge with HTML or eliminate overlap * Outreach to content creators (content consumers dominate the current WG) * Move...

Excerpt from Last Week in HTML5 at

Here’s some commentary on the Workshop.

Posted by Rob Sayre at

There is yet another workshop, Shaping the Future of HTML which is very often forgotten. It happened in May 1998.

The first sentence of the workshop page is

Is HTML 4.0 the last HTML? Does XML mean the end of HTML? Has W3C given up on HTML?

The minutes (W3C Member only. I can’t read them anymore) of the workshop and the position papers have to be read because they contained gems of uncanny discussions with the current state of affairs.

Posted by karl dubost at

More “The Workshop” related commentary

[link]
[link]

Posted by Harshal at

Nothing curious about it... I was entirely unaware of The Workshop.

I’m surprised.

Anyway, the WHATWG didn’t simply form a group outside the W3C like your timeline suggests. The idea of continuing to evolve HTML and the DOM was presented and voted on in The Workshop. It was voted against twice (with the opposition growing on the second round of voting).

The WHATWG was ready to start before The Workshop, though. (The WHATWG mailing list archives start in April 2004.) When the W3C Members voted against doing the work at the W3C, the plan B, i.e. the WHATWG, was announced just two days later. To use feed terminology, it was a case of routing around Stop Energy.

I think the big problem with that vote and the other workshop Karl mentioned is the whole notion that the W3C could vote or otherwise decide to end-of-life a core language that the browsable Web depends on as if it were something for a committee to decide instead of something that depends on a market that isn’t completely under a committee’s control (a market where those who supply solutions for the core language presumably want to continue to do so and where there are also other competing offerings such as proprietary runtimes).

Recharter XHTML2 to either merge with HTML or eliminate overlap

Would rechartering the XHTML2 WG to work exclusively on XHTML2 in the http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2 namespace (in application/xml) count as eliminating overlap? Or do you mean eliminating presumed use case overlap as well?

Evaluate consensus prior to Last Call

Do you already have an evaluation method in mind?

Posted by Henri Sivonen at

Or do you mean eliminating presumed use case overlap as well?

No.  Analogy: at the ASF, we have both httpd and Tomcat.

Do you already have an evaluation method in mind?

I’ve given it some thought.  Actually, the entire thread is instructive.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

links for 2009-03-16

Matrix Layouts "Matrix Layouts are like table-based layouts combined with absolute positioning. It only adds one new property value and tries to build on existing concepts (margin, border, padding, z-index and all that other fun stuff still...

Excerpt from Ip's. at

What a depressing saga. Authors just want to be able to use this stuff already and have it work pretty much the same across browsers without resorting to all sorts of hackery. Sigh.

Posted by Christian Romney at

Today’s random reading

Too many interesting tabs open in FF right now to not link them. Newspapers and Thinking the Unthinkable How the printing press - and the internet - change the world. Best quote: “If you can’t trust Aristotle, who can you trust?” Geir’s most recent...

Excerpt from Punderings at

"Current state: HTML is being developed outside of the W3C by a number of browser implementers,..."

“ Current state: HTML is being developed outside of the W3C by a number of browser implementers, excluding Microsoft. The prevalent feeling amongst those that do so is that if the W3C doesn’t adopt their spec, the W3C will look dull. Desired state:...

Excerpt from Brandt's Tumbling Log at

“A Victory for Democracy” is the sixth episode of the BBC comedy series Yes, Prime Minister and was first broadcast 13 February 1986, at least according to Wikipedia. So I think the reference is correct.

Posted by Ian Hickson at

Proof by Wikipedia.  QED.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

The evolution and future of HTML

I don’t know about others, but I haven’t been paying all that much attention to what’s going on with HTML 5 lately. Once I realised that it would not be about fixing the Web I pretty much lost interest. Despite not being involved anymore I...

Excerpt from 456 Berea Street at

In [link] I suggest the diff
-[link]
+http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014/

-[link]
+http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/msg/a298577d55dbcfe4

Posted by Nicolas Krebs at

Nicolas: Fixed.  Thanks!

Posted by Sam Ruby at

links for 2009-03-19

[TAF2009]動画革命東京 「センコロール」メジャーデビュー決定記者発表会 (tags: taf anime) 「今はダントツでmixi」--ギャルのケータイ最新事情:インタビュー - CNET Japan ......

Excerpt from アヨハタブログ at

HTML 5... [more]

Trackback from WOMBAT

at

Some links for light reading (24/3/09)

Putting ie6 out to pasture Can Opera Ever Become Popular? When is the right time for accessibility? Marketing in 140 Characters or Less My name is not a URL Newspapers and Thinking the Unthinkable Getting Started With Ruby On Rails Keyboard...

Excerpt from maxdesign.com.au at

Is the Pretense of the Open Web Gone?

This is interesting. Mozilla is looking at a way to bring accelerated 3D to the web. Christopher Blizzard has more information on his blog and a couple of good quotes: We’ve started to see more and more libraries being built to support use cases...

Excerpt from Ryan Stewart - Rich Internet Application Mountaineer at

Pervin' the Standards

This is not a tightly-honed, logical, and factually persuasive essay. I cannot predict the future well enough to induce others to change from a dangerous course. Consider this as just an honest rant. I’m quite apprehensive of the future of HTML, if...

Excerpt from Adobe Blogs at

links for 2009-04-10

HTML Evolution. HTML 5 Current state: HTML is being developed outside of the W3C by a number of browser implementers, excluding Microsoft. The prevalent feeling amongst those that do so is that if the W3C doesn’t adopt their spec, the W3C will look...

Excerpt from Structured Methods at

Comic Update: Madness? This is HTML5!

Warning: this post falls into diatribe territory. I strongly feel that important technologies should be determined by consensus and not closed circles, and I’m not convinced that this is currently the case of HTML5. I seriously doubt that Ian...

Excerpt from CSSquirrel at

HTML Evolution

HTML Evolution by François Hodierne & 1 other(s) html html5 Copy | React (0) [link]...

Excerpt from Public marks with tag html5 at

Google’s role is not free from the perception of conflict of interest, and that coupled with Ian’s endorsed role as a dictator will affect the credibility of the outcome produced. In particular, it will give Microsoft all of the excuse it needs to...

Excerpt from Public marks with tag html5 at

Switched

...

Excerpt from mezzoblue at

2009-07-02 XHTML2 charter will be allowed to expire
2009-10-15 HTML+RDFa WD
2011-01-18 WAI ARIA CR
2011-02-03 Decentralized extensibility Decision

Posted by Sam Ruby at

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