It’s just data

Mountain, Mohammed; Mohammed, Mountain; Please Talk

<Hixie> well then aria won’t make LC
<Hixie> we can always do it after LC

I must say, that’s just goofy.  “Here’s a document, it is not functionally complete, but it is your last chance to provide input”.

Equally as busted: I’m told that the the PF WG has answers to the questions that are blocking Ian’s progress, but won’t share them.

And just to complete the insanity, I can get the relevant members of the PF WG to attend tomorrow’s call, but not Ian.


“Has answers to” is inaccurate, and “won’t share them” is unnecessarily dramatic. PF is still processing the responses to the ARIA LC comments, and will get them out to Ian (among others) ASAP.

Posted by Matt May at

I’ve been told “has answers to” by multiple people.  I’ve even seen and discussed what I think are constructive responses to Ian’s questions, but I’ve not been given permission to share them.  What you think is dramatic, I think is rather understated.

We have people who, on principle, won’t share anything until they have a response to everything.  And then we have people who, on principle, won’t discuss things in realtime on a phone.

From my perspective, the result is inevitable.  Within 30 minutes after Ian gets to see the answers, I’ll bet that there will be a response along the lines of “that won’t work for the following reason”.  I don’t know what that reason will be, but I am willing to bet that it will be a damn good one.

And then we get to start this cycle over again.  And everybody ends up being losers in the process.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

That’s precisely the reason PF is being so deliberative in addressing his issues. If there needs to be some discussion after that, then let’s hash it out in XTech where it belongs.

In fact, the worst-case scenario is that we produce incomplete responses that Ian dismisses out of hand. Then we’re back to a cycle.

Posted by Matt May at

It is possible to take a slippery slope argument and prove pretty much anything you wish to prove.  The solution is not to avoid cycles, as that is impossible, but to reduce the cycle time instead.  Even if that means that the initial answers aren’t perfect.

I’ve got Richard Schwerdtfeger willing to talk in realtime on tomorrows call.  I don’t yet have Ian’s agreement to participate, but if he can’t or won’t attend, perhaps Henri or Maciej can ferry the answers back to Ian.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

It’s like a reality show on VH1...

Posted by Jeff Schiller at

then let’s hash it out in XTech where it belongs.

There now is a proposal to create a joint task force.  These silly turf wars must end.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

For those who didn’t attend the conference (which once again was at capacity) but for some strange reason are interested in following the drama...

Richard Schwerdtfeger explained the direction the PF WG was heading, which I will summarize as they examined all of the aria attributes came to the conclusion that the host language (in this case HTML) semantics should take precedence in all cases save one: namely the role attribute, as there are cases where the role attribute is needed to refine the semantics provided by the host language.

Maciej Stachowiak was present, and it didn’t take 30 minutes for him to identify why that solution wasn’t sufficient.  Coming at it from the HTML side, if you look at the various elements, there are some whose semantics are fixed, some whose semantics are loose, and some whose semantics completely mutable.

This leads to two actions.  In the short term (as in days), the ARIA spec needs to enable host languages to make these distinctions.  In the longer term (as in weeks) somebody needs to work out a matrix of potential combinations; for examples rows can be html elements and columns can be aria roles, and for each determine if the combination makes sense.  Some HTML elements, like <input> may require multiple “rows” as what is possibly may vary based on the value of the type attribute.

This work could be done jointly, or Ian could take a stab at it and the results reviewed.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Related: ARIA in HTML5 Integration: Document Conformance (Draft, Take Two) by Henri Sivonen.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Maciej: I feel that ~15 minutes of telecon time was more valuable than all the back and forth on this so far

Posted by Sam Ruby at

That fragment of the telecon was indeed useful. On the whole I am not a fan of telecons, but sometimes realtime discussion is the best way to get past a communication problem.

Posted by Maciej Stachowiak at

Maciej: that’s a start!

My experience is that this working group has a lot of communication problems.  Cynthia nailed it.

The group prides itself on being open.  It tells everybody to post to the list so that everybody can participate.  Nothing can be more open, right?

Wrong.  Each and every day, I see instances of somebody who has the bandwidth to keep up with the list to send subtle but very clear messages to those that wish to participate that “your kind are not welcome here”.  One such happened today, and I hope you know what I am talking about (no, I won’t link to it here, that would only make it worse).

The real story behind what caused today’s meeting to happen is that I had been trying to get the right people to participate on the list, and they saw the 700+ email threads on summary and told me flat out that I was out of my <bleeping> mind.

I will say that I run a tight meeting.  We completed on time and got to everything on the agenda.  As we did last week.  And I will say that I am working on something that should make next week’s meeting worthwhile.  To be fair, I didn’t invent the opportunity (just as I didn’t invent today’s), but I will say that I am very opportunistic.  As we move to Last Call, these meetings will become more vital.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

HTML 5–What I’m Watching

I have recently become glued to my computer monitor as the latest reality show “HTML 5″ unfolds. Since I was a participant in previous W3C reality shows (both seasons of WCAG), I understand some of the history and sympathize with many of...

Excerpt from Wendy Chisholm at

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