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Adobe’s non-Formal non-Objection

No work stopped.

At no time did the current, up to the minute, versions — complete with occasional typos and botched commits — of the editor’s drafts become unavailable: HTML5, RDFa, MicroData, 2D Context, Markup, Diffs.

The absolute most that anybody, anywhere, ever proposed was that these very same documents be published with different labels: either as result of being moved to a different working group, or with different disclaimers in the status section.  Neither request is without precedent.

This has lead to a Wonderland debate about what HTML is.  From my perspective, that’s about as productive as trying to argue about whether or not jQuery.getJSON is, or is not, AJAX.  Of the six documents to be published this go around, three are not published by the WHATWG.  The documents published by the WHATWG span multiple working groups and even standards organizations.  In fact, the draft, revised charter for the WebApps Working Group is looking to acknowledge the splitting of documents and changing of ownership explicitly:

Specifically, because of the close relationship of the WebApps WG and the HTML WG in terms of participants, market, and community, the WebApps WG may opt to take on a limited number of specifications which were initially part of the HTML5 specification that have been split off for more general use with other languages, without rechartering the group, and only by consensus of both groups.

With that out of the way, what I want to talk about is openness.

Private mailing lists at the W3C are like steak knives at restaurants.  These mailing lists serve a purpose.  And should they ever be used for a different purpose, it is that usage that needs to be addressed, not the mechanism itself.

A few things worth pointing out:

This is because, when all is said and done, there is absolutely no reason that heartbeat requirements should ever get in the way of getting work done.

That being said, the co-chairs felt it prudent to hold off for a few days before sending the request to publish.

Update: Chair's Decision, Director's Decision


So what problem did conducting this discussion on a private list solve exactly? All you’ve done above is argue by assertion.

Posted by Graham at

So it all comes down to “What was paulc smoking?”, I guess?

(Oh, and you’re not exactly welcoming to people who are new here…)

Posted by Ms2ger at

There has been no discussion, at least no discussion that I am aware of or have participated in.  The Team has been waiting for the CfC to complete.  It completed last night.  The co-chairs met this morning/early this afternoon (depending on time zones), and have requested that the Director himself weigh in.

If, for any reason, this can’t be accomplished quickly, we will find an alternate way to proceed.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Sam, thanks for clearly stating and documenting the facts, without all the drama and hyperbole.  That steak-knives link was very good as well.

Posted by Doug Schepers at

shelleypowers: Good, succinct, comprehensive post covering HTML5 docs pub status by @samruby http://intertwingly.net/blog/3119.html via @othermaciej.

shelleypowers: Good, succinct, comprehensive post covering HTML5 docs pub status by @samruby [link] via @othermaciej....

Excerpt from Twitter / shelleypowers at

Daily Brief, February 18th 2010, Afternoon Edition

HTML5 is doing just fine. Maybe Cholesterol-busting wonder drugs, those that supposedly help prevent a heart attacks, increase chances diabetes The Plastic Ono Band reunites for Yoko Ono’s birthday Two-time Olympic gold metal winner, Shaun White, on...

Excerpt from Shawn Medero at

[from inkdroid] Sam Ruby: Adobe’s non-Formal non-Objection

[link]...

Excerpt from Delicious/network/pkeane at

Sam Ruby: Adobe’s non-Formal non-Objection

Sam Ruby: Adobe’s non-Formal non-Objection Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 19:16No work stopped.At no time did the current, up to the minute, versions — complete with occasional typos and botched commits — of the editor’s drafts become unavailable: HTML5......

Excerpt from はてなブックマーク - Memos on the Moon - お気に入り at

othermaciej: Excellent post from @samruby clarifying #html5 publication status: http://intertwingly.net/blog/3119.html

othermaciej: Excellent post from @samruby clarifying #html5 publication status: [link]...

Excerpt from Twitter / othermaciej at

Having followed this confusion regarding formal? objection? to a request to publish some drafts as FPWDs, i only have one question:

What game is Adobe’s larry masinter playing?

Posted by ombarg at

I support modularity, separate sub-groups, and a clearer charter and document status

From http://bit.ly/9k54HF:

I appreciate the continued work of the group and co-Chairs to ensure constructive inter- and intra-group communication, and to make the HTML Working Group a forum conducive to participation.

Posted by Larry Masinter at

othermaciej on Tim Berners-Lee Rejects Adobe's Objection, Allows All Working Drafts to be Published

Oh, also forgot to mention, Ian is the editor of HTML5, but not one of the co-chairs. One of the co-chairs, Sam Ruby, made what I thought was a very balanced post at the time: [link]...

Excerpt from programming at

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